Why does Poland continue to esteem a Constitution that was adopted over 200 years ago and had been in force for only several months? What do the Poles who remained at home and those who live all over the world believe in? Why does Poland care about its neighbors as about itself? Which are its successes and current challenges and why does it need the wreck of the aircraft involved in a plane accident eight years ago? What lessons can the Republic of Moldova and its citizens learn from Poland’s experience and from its relations with this country? Answers to these and other questions can be found in an interview conducted by Valeriu Vasilica with His Excellence Ambassador of the Republic of Poland to the Republic of Moldova Bartlomiej Zdaniuk, on the occasion of the national holiday of Poland that is celebrated on May 3.
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- The main national holiday for most of the states of the world is related to the day when they were proclaimed or when they regained independence, or on the birthday of the country’s leader. Poland is one of the few countries, if not the only one in Europe, that marks the Constitution Day as the most important national holiday. Where does this Polish specific feature come from?
- First of all, let me tell you that we have two national holidays. We celebrate one of them on May 3 and the other one on November 11. They are both related to the country’s Independence. The second holiday, which we will celebrate in autumn, is connected with the year 1918, which is also very important for us. May 3 is related to the adoption of the Constitution of 1791 and we don’t speak only about the Constitution here. What happened then, at the end of the 18th century? An attempt was made to save the Independence, to modernize the State? How did Poland look in that period? It regrettably looked badly, with a very inefficient state system. I will give you an example. For the laws to take effect, they had to be adopted by a unanimous vote. So, it was enough for an MP to be against and the law wasn’t passed. That’s why we entered a period of stagnation. The Polish state didn’t develop. At the same time, the neighbors developed at a very swift pace and we thus became a very easy prey for our neighbors that became our enemies too. On May 3, 1791, there was voted a Constitution that eliminated some of the obstacles to the development of the state. That unanimity of votes was replaced by a majority of votes. Regrettably, several months after the adoption of that Constitution, our enemies, with the help of a traitor from inside the country, started a so-called insurrection that we call the Confederation of Targowica and the King was obliged to abrogate that Constitution. However, even if it didn’t resist long, we celebrate this day to show our wish to keep the Independence and the capacity to make progress.
- The Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791 is considered the first national Constitution of the modern world in Europe. It laid the basis of modern democratic processes in Poland and not only and influenced them in the course of history. Where did these processes arrive now in Poland and in Europe on the whole?
- The democratic processes in Poland started earlier than the Constitution of 1791. Our Parliament has existed since the end of the 15th century. During over 500 years, no law could take effect without the Parliament’s vote. So, there was democracy in Poland earlier too, but this was for the nobility only. It was a kind of nobility democracy, aristocratic democracy. Not everyone had political rights. Unlike other states in Western and Eastern Europe, we had yet very powerful representation. Other states witnessed absolutism, but we didn’t. We had a democratic system then already even if, I repeat, not for everyone, but for about 10% of society. This marked our history in the immediate period. Poland, the Poles are a nation for which the freedom is very important. Freedom from foreign occupation and also personal freedom. We have some rights and we want to keep these rights. That’s why a dictatorship could not take roots in our country. We headed the struggle against the Communist system. The first protests against the system were mounted in 1956 and then in 1968, 1970, 1976, 1980 and so on.
I think this wish to live in a free and democratic state continues to exist. The form acquired by the democratic model is another question. There is no distinct answer. The democratic standards change. Some were democratic standards in the 19th century. Others are such standards now. I believe we witness a greater participation by society in a world where social networking sites, the Internet developed, where transparency made considerable progress. For example, it is much harder now to hide some things from society than earlier. That’s why I think we all go towards a model where we have a society that consists of slightly consumer citizens and observer citizens and also of activists. We do not have only one model of citizens. There are several models. I think the most optimistic is the fact that the people realize the processes that happen around them. It is very hard, if not impossible, to cheat them. The people know what’s going on and can describe and understand the situation and this is very important.
- They now speak more about modern Poland’s tendency to become one of the new centers of influence in Europe, in particular in Central and Southeastern Europe and among the ex-Soviet states, from political, economic and security viewpoints. Does Poland have interest and capacity for this?
- First of all, Poland’s wish is to exist in a stable area with prosperous countries, where the people have development prospects. This is the most important thing, alongside independence, security and prosperity. I’m convinced that everyone wants this and it is normal for Poland, as for other states, to do what’s possible at domestic and foreign levels to achieve these goals. Surely, to achieve them, we need potential. The potential does not have only a political dimension. It first and foremost has economic, cultural and spiritual dimensions and is a process or phenomenon witnessed everywhere. Surely, Poland is not a superpower or a world power. It is probably not and will not be a regional power, but is yet an important state. Poland is the largest European Union member state in Central and Eastern Europe. Ukraine and, certainly, Russia are larger than Poland by territory, but among the EU member states Poland is the largest by the size of its population and by the size of its territory too. It is a state with a history of over 1,000 years. That’s why we have potential and wish that seem normal to me. It is not exaggerated or weird to want to cooperate with our partners so as to go on together.
- How true is the impression that to achieve these and other, more internal goals, Poland sometimes puts up open resistance to Brussels as a decision-making center of the European Union? If so, isn’t this policy risky for the unity of the EU, which is the main power of the EU in front of growing internal and external challenges?
- I consider one thing should be said very clearly: the European Union is not an organization that managed to ‘melt’ states. We have a Union with 28 members now and we will see how many members will be in the future. These states have their own interests and each state defends these interests. This is absolutely normal and we think Poland has exactly the same rights to defend its interests. We are a state that entered the market economy very recently compared with the Western states. We are a state where many areas should be yet reformed, like the energy policy. The electric power in Poland is produced mainly based on fuel. The states in Western Europe passed this stage long ago and have nuclear reactors. In Poland, we have no nuclear reactors. There is only one small reactor used for scientific purposes. That’s why when speaking about the protection of the environment, we are definitely in favor. But when we say that we should close all the thermal plants, this means destroying our energy production network and it then goes not only to the protection of jobs, but also to the defense of Independence. Our partners do the same as regards the protection of business in their states, of investors, culture, language. I think Poland probably reached a moment when it realized that it should defend particular interests.
That’s why Poland is very active in the cooperation with its partners. The Visegrad Group that includes, besides Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary, is very important. We understood that some of the problems are very similar and thus want to have a common position. Less within the European Union, but within NATO the cooperation of nine countries of the Eastern flank of NATO, from Estonia up to Bulgaria, is very developed. These countries realized that if we manage to take particular decisions together, it will be easier to negotiate with our partners from Western Europe. Another initiative launched a year ago is the initiative of the three seas: Baltic Sea, Black Sea and Adriatic Sea. U.S. President Donald Tramp, during his visit to Warsaw in July 2017, supported this initiative. So, there are many regional and sub-regional cooperation formats and, surely, each state can take part in these formats to defend their position. That’s why Poland presents its viewpoint and defends it in an absolutely normal and transparent way, discussing with absolutely all its partners.
- Which are the most prominent accomplishments of Poland after the dismemberment of the Socialist camp?
- Firstly, we managed to build a solid sector of small and medium-sized enterprises. The Polish success was namely due to the SMEs. These firms, some of which are very small, contribute about two thirds to the Gross Domestic Product of Poland. Surely, the people of other nations are also very hard-working, but, besides this wish to have a firm, there should be a legal formwork that at least does not affect the development of this firm.
Decentralization is the second success and a big pride of Poland. In March 1990 already, there was adopted the first decentralization law. In 1997, there was passed another package of laws. In particular, the number of voivodeships or regions (Polish “województwo”) deceased from 49 to 16 at present. The “powiat” or district is the middle level of the local administration system in Poland. This is followed by the level of communes “gmina”. Our achievements are primarily due to the efficiency of these bodies that should be given not only powers, which is relatively easy, but also a budget. This is much more difficult. That’s why the finances should be decentralized and this contributed substantially to our success.
I think the wish and capacity of the people to work and go on is our third accomplishment.
- Which were the most serious challenges in the period?
- We can say that the changes are the other side of the coin. First of all, a lot of people left Poland, as many people left the Republic of Moldova to work abroad. In our history, we have several migration waves. In the 19th century, there was the first big wave. The last wave started with the entry of our country into the European Union. They say the figure rose to over 1 million or even 2 million people who went mainly to the UK. What kind of challenge is this? First of all, a very important factor of our development left. Surely, some of them send money home. But we would like them to stay in Poland, to create jobs, to start businesses, etc. Currently, we face a shortage of labor force because a lot of specialists left and when the situation in our county ultimately improved, we realized that we do not have specialists in a lot of areas and we thus think what to do. This is a phenomenon that is not the result of a political decision. It is the result of the needs of the labor market. We witness massive arrivals of people from other countries, especially Ukraine. They say over 1 million people come to work in Poland. People from the Republic of Moldova also come and I’m convinced that they find jobs here easily.
What other challenges do we face? The say in Polish, as actually in Romanian too, that the appetite grows with eating. I’m glad that we managed to build highways, to renovate some of the railways, but we surely want to go on. So, the challenges are probably there where we didn’t yet manage to complete the country’s modernization as regards infrastructure as this thing affects the development of the economy, the attraction of investments and other things.
The challenge related to international environment and international security, to the annexation of Crimea and other aspects is probably the last challenge at present.
- A challenge or a rather big tragedy that hit Poland was when a plane crash claimed the lives of almost all the country’s leaders. Was enough light shed on this case? Did Poland learn the lesson as a result?
- Regrettably, we cannot yet say that light was shed over all the existing questions. To begin with, the wreck of the plane is not yet in Poland. The Polish authorities do not have access to this wreck and to the original flight recorders. We have the copies, while the originals are not in Poland. All these things are a serious obstacle and we cannot say that we discovered the truth. Eight years passed and the wreck continues to rust. So, we don’t know when we will be able to find out more, even if we gain access to the wreck that is actually property of the Polish state. The wound will continue to bleed. The mourning will not end until we analyze what’s left of the plane and the original black boxes. We are still waiting for a more constructive position on the part of our Russian partners. I’m convinced that we made progress in the investigation, but each conclusion is only preliminary until we do not have access to the most important piece in this case, which continues to be in Smolensk. This situation surely revealed particular shortcomings in the functioning of the Polish state and we had to deal with them attentively and to learn the lesson.
- What other lessons learned by Poland should be taken into account by the Republic of Moldova and its people now and in the future?
- It is very hard or even impossible for an embassy to make recommendations for another state or for the people of this state. I’m convinced, and this thing is seen daily, that the people of the Republic of Moldova are very friendly, hardworking and open. We daily have evidence of sympathy and can initiate many cooperation projects without any problem. I think the most important is the recommendation formulated by all the EU member states – to consolidate the legal and even political framework so as to attract more investment. When the framework is favorable, the investors come to invest. I think the Republic of Moldova has a very big potential in a number of areas, primarily agriculture and not only.
Poland continues to be open to the Republic of Moldova. Unfortunately, the loan for Moldova’s agriculture couldn’t have been yet used for reasons that do not depend on Poland. We didn’t get angry. No one is angry. We continue to wait and hope that this project will be implemented. The money is in Warsaw and is waiting to be collected. So, I think at least several goals that are common for everyone and have no political connotation should be identified in Moldova. The parties changed in Poland too, but some of the elements remained the same for all. The most important thing should be identified here. There are many partners with a very positive approach and not only in Poland. There are open partners ready to implement this project together. We are here and are ready and the rest depends on the Republic of Moldova.
- What place does the Republic of Moldova occupy in Poland’s circle of interests? Why?
- The Republic of Moldova occupies a very important place. The security of the region is essential for us. Each success of the Republic of Moldova and other neighbors of ours is also our success. Each defeat and each problem have an impact on the situation in our country. The Republic of Moldova has to deal with many challenges, not only the Transnistrian issue, but also other internal challenges. The resolution of these problems is in Poland’s interests as the region will thus become more stable and Poland will become more attractive as a state. That’s why we want to continue our cooperation for everyone’s benefit. We care about the developments in your country as this is important for us, for our image and position. That’s why Poland is very active in the post-Soviet area, especially in Eastern Europe. Poland was one of the two authors of the Eastern Partnership project because we realize that, if the situation in the given area is not stabilized and we do not see progress, this will be an obstacle to our development too.
- You reminded about the loan of €100 million. In what other areas of the bilateral relations things go better or not so well?
- It is hard to speak about shortcomings. I think progress has been made in all the areas already. There are areas where the cooperation develops at a more sustained pace or could develop at such a pace. We do not perceive the current situation as one with areas with positive effects and with negative ones. Everything is positive, but things in some of the areas could stand better. We have an important rise in trade. Last year trade even doubled. We have intense cooperation relations in culture, with a lot of people of culture coming from Poland to the Republic of Moldova and vice versa. We witnessed a good start as regards our financial presence. I refer to the Polish investment in the sugar industry, where a state business entity from Poland, by the way, is present in the Republic of Moldova and works here.
We also have important cooperation in the security sector. Poland also contributed to the disposal of pesticides in the Republic of Moldova. We have a Polish community in the Republic of Moldova, which is very active. We have very active interparliamentary cooperation. So, there is wish and there is geographical and spiritual proximity. Besides the problem related to the loan, if I look at the state of the relations between the Republic of Moldova and Poland, I can say that we have very important and sustained development everywhere.
- Why does the Embassy of Poland show increased interest in developing the Moldovan-Polish cultural relations and finds it necessary to make effort and to use substantial financial resources for the purpose, possibly larger than other embassies working in Chisinau?
- I would not like to take part in a competition. All the embassies working in Chisinau make considerable effort to cooperate with the Republic of Moldova and I don’t think we are different from other embassies. We all want to be present. We think the spiritual dimension is very important. Surely, we cannot ignore the economic dimension as one dimension without the other would be rather poor to my mind. We should focus on both of the dimensions and should realize in what world we live, who our neighbors are and what their viewpoint is. Only then we will be able to take a decision and to have a more objective opinion. By our cultural presence, we want to build a spiritual connection between Poland and the Republic of Moldova. We want to somehow share our national cultural heritage with you so that the people here have access to more sources of cultural information.
We spoke earlier about Independence. Independence does not refer to the political sphere only. It is not enough to place a sign with the name of the state, to create the coat of arms and an anthem and say that we have Independence. No. Independence should exist in the minds of the people. They should want to have an independent state where they would live freely. If you don’t know who you are, you don’t know what you want to achieve. You do not have a plan for a longer period of time. We also spoke about SMEs and local self-government. All these elements form a total: the economic side, the administrative side, the cultural side. This total is called a state. Earlier, in my previous assignment, I wrote about this idea of consolidation of states. To enjoy security, one should have consolidated states and this spiritual dimension contributes to this consolidation.
- How can you speak Romanian so well when you came to the Republic of Moldova not so long ago?
- French is my first foreign language. At school I also studied Russian. When I started to do research about the Republic of Moldova and Romania, I realized Romanian is a language that resembles the languages I knew then and in time I started to have a modest command of a part of your beautiful language.
- Who is Bartlomiej Zdaniuk outside the official post of ambassador?
- I’m an expert in political sciences by profession. I spent my whole life at the University of Warsaw, the Institute of Political Sciences. A politologist first of all wonders how this system works. I mean the system as a state, which is called commune, district, international organization, international relations. It is a system where there are people. What are the relations between the people? What is the factor that turns the structure of a group of people into a consolidated structure, such as a nation, a people? I think the curiosity derives from here: how the people function in general in other states; what is the difference between my country and other countries? What do the people prefer there and what do the people prefer in our country? Huge richness can be then seen, which belongs to the whole world. We all know about the geographical richness and natural richness. These are also very important aspects and I’m interested in them too. But a politologist is first of all interested in the richness of the human relations in the world. What forms these have? That’s why my dream is perhaps to learn more about your country and the people in your country and to somehow build a strong connection between the people here and the people in Poland.
